SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The quickest reference I've found is from Dec. 7, 2021

"Extensive research conducted by the American Psychological Association found that 53% of couples who experienced infidelity in their marriage were divorced within 5 years, even with therapy. The study says that couples who have been unfaithful are three times more likely to separate than monogamous couples."

Maybe not "small," but certainly not promising, especially in this case.

T/j

"Stayed together" doesn't mean they actually reconciled,or even that they reconciled in a healthy manner.

I didn't read Glass's book..but how can that possibly be used as an example? Who's to say that the entire 80% "stayed together" any longer than the book was published?

Some times a WS mask slips. We see it here all the time. Members who come back,because even though their WS "did the work," they cheated again.

And, sometimes it just takes a BS a few years to realize the affair was a deal breaker.

End t/j.

Bob, like the others, her saying she had an issue with transparency because it reminded her of a stalker she had in high school is laughable. It was pure manipulation. And it worked. You felt bad.

Also? If she suddenly decides she's sorry,and you try to R, she's already set it up so she doesn't have to be transparent. This..after you finding out contact continued between her and the AP.

Without full transparency, there can be no attempt to R.

There is no way around it.

Since then we've actually had the most open and honest conversations possibly in our entire relationship. I guess because she has nothing less to lose. She was able to tell me that the electronic transparency had been giving her panic attacks because after she'd been sexually assaulted when she was thirteen, the perpetrator stalked her after school every day. That hit me like truck. I think I could have lived without it if she'd just told me that she was being retraumatized. Without that reason, I was like "Join the fucking club! We're all having panic attacks!"

If that actually happened to your WW, that's tragic and should never happen to anyone.

But it's still just an excuse. She's only retraumatized when she's going to see her AP? The fact that she's willing to use a story like this to manipulate you makes it all the more outrageous. What about your trauma? Does she care that every time she gets caught in a lie she is retraumatizing you?

She's crying now because you've mentioned the possibility of taking cake off the menu. Time to activate the waterworks.

How can you live without location transparency when she has already demonstrated her willingness to lie and deceive to continue her A? If your WW cannot provide transparency she will never be a safe partner to you.

If you haven't, you should read "Cheating In A Nutshell." You are falling victim to all the factors that make a BS who wants R easy prey for a manipulative WS. You have no conception that someone you love could lie to you continuously about everything. But that's what she's doing.

Wishing you peace and strength.

ETA: Bob, Actually, this went pretty well, even though you're heading in a direction that wasn't the one you wanted.

After d-day, if R is a possibility, the BS's best approach is to test the WS to find out if they're a good candidate for R. You did that, and your W didn't show herself to be one.

That's a win for you.

I know it's hard to break up a LT M - but it's probably better to D than to stay in an M with an unremorseful WS. At the very least, D frees you to find other sources of joy.

*****

** Not Posting as Staff **

The quickest reference I've found is from Dec. 7, 2021

"Extensive research conducted by the American Psychological Association found that 53% of couples who experienced infidelity in their marriage were divorced within 5 years, even with therapy. The study says that couples who have been unfaithful are three times more likely to separate than monogamous couples."

That's from a 2014 article based on a sample of 19 couples. Just to be clear, no one - no one - is justified in generalizing from a sample that small.

The General Social Survey is a rigorous study with a long record, but there's evidence that people respond differently to interviews and anonymous surveys, and the GSS is, IIRC, based on interviews. Besides, I don't think they go into outcomes of infidelity.

Further, there's no clear definition of 'true R' or 'truly significant magnitude'. Remember: even 1% of the US population is well over 1,000,000 people. Besides, It's not for your or me to define the quality of someone else's relationship. I'm OK with saying, 'I wouldn't accept that.' Telling someone they shouldn't accept something depends on what that something is. Sometimes one just has to accept 'good enough' or 'the best solution I could come up with'. Sometimes that's means joy; sometimes not.

Most important is that SI members are individuals, and statistics do not apply to individuals. Each of us has to find our own solution. Each of us has to make their own decisions, no matter what the probabilities are. And there's no disputing that some longshots (10:1, 100:1, 1000:1) pay off.

We know from testimony and surveys of non-random samples that a lot of us D and a lot of us R. We know some people stay together unhappily. We know some people D unhappily. We know some people stay together and the A has ripples 10, 20, 30 years afterwards.

The only conclusion supported by the data we have is: we don't know much about infidelity statistics and probabilities. All we have are anecdotal data and surveys of self-selected samples.

How and why do people draw firm, supposedly statistics-based conclusions on infidelity even though the data don't support them? Why not accept that we don't know the numbers?

My bet: confirmation bias, at best, but I'm interested in reading how people tell themselves they know what they can't.

*****

I didn't read Glass's book..but how can that possibly be used as an example?

Glass documented her numbers but made no claim that they were representative. The conclusion I drew was this: If both partners say they want to R and do the necessary work, they'll R. The couples she cites had her therapeutic help, but that is no longer available, so I discounted it.

'If both partners say they want to R and do the necessary work, they'll R' looks like a truism to me. Does it not describe your experience?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:16 PM, Monday, May 29th]

Going to be blunt.

I've told her that if she was willing to give it another shot we could talk about it but only because at this point it costs me nothing to leave the door open.

I beg to differ. It will cost you your self-respect.

By leaving the door open, you only indicate to your WW that you are willing compromise your own self for a chance to get back with her, and that she is indeed a Prize, rather than you.

If you had just proceeded to D with no door open, your position would have been much stronger. This does not mean that you are to be antagonistic to your WW, far from it. All you need to do is to keep to the 180. No need to be rude/antagonistic about it.

You don't have to be nice to have an amicable D. You also don't have to be 'friends' to bring up a child in a D. However, you will need her to respect you, which she possibly will not if you keep giving her 'chances'.

If she eventually twigs on that these 'chances' that you tell her she has are false, then your amicable D may turn antagonistic. Best course is to just tell her the truth, that there are no chances, so that things are clear.

Don't continue doing the Pick-me dance.....

How are you holding up, Bob?

Sorry for the silence, folks. It was WW's birthday this weekend and for the sake of our daughter I wanted it to be happy family time. I knew if I were on here reading your advice and writing that I would be some variation or combination of mopey or angry so I've avoided the site.

I actually went to a local casino with her on her birthday for dinner and some gambling. If I'm being totally honest, I felt like if I didn't celebrate with her then she would celebrate with AP and I didn't want to give him the satisfaction. Fuck him. On the bright side, I won $700 and WW barely broke even. Karma!

I'm pretty sure she went to see AP again yesterday. She had said she was going to see her mother but when she was later coming home than she said she would be and blamed traffic on the route, the supposed traffic was curiously absent from Google Maps. Maybe she did see her mom earlier and then went to see AP but I doubt it.

I hate that she strung me along when we were supposed to be trying to reconcile and I hate that she seems to be doing it still. When I said something about divorce on Sunday she said (quoting me) "it's not over, 'til it's over." She got offered a new job today and her schedule will include alternating weekends and I mentioned it would be perfect for our situation and she replied "whatever that situation turns out to be." I don't know if she's leading me on with this shit because she thinks it's the only way to keep me from moving faster than she thinks our daughter can handle or if she really believes there's hope.

Anyway, we're going to meet with a mediator next week and begin the process of sorting through our finances and everything to figure out how we disentangle ourselves. She broke me.

I'm going to put myself back together better than before.

"I don't know if she's leading me on with this shit because she thinks it's the only way to keep me from moving faster than she thinks our daughter can handle or if she really believes there's hope."

Neither. She's going to keep eating cake for as long as you keep the bakery open... which means keeping both her AP and the comfort of her marriage for as long as possible.

I don't blame you for trying to maintain some sense of normalcy for the sake of your daughter this weekend, but you should definitely move implement a hard 180 while you plan the logistics of separation. Your wife needs to be disabused of the idea that you will allow yourself to be fooled by her again.

I'm pretty sure she went to see AP again yesterday. She had said she was going to see her mother but when she was later coming home than she said she would be and blamed traffic on the route, the supposed traffic was curiously absent from Google Maps. Maybe she did see her mom earlier and then went to see AP but I doubt it.

And she isn't sharing location because of high school trauma still? If you don't have full accounting of her location, it's safe to assume she is lying based on her prior actions.

I full agree with bluerthanblue. She will keep the AP and the marriage as long as "both" is still an option. And it will be "over when it's over".

I full agree with bluerthanblue. She will keep the AP and the marriage as long as "both" is still an option. And it will be "over when it's over".

I third this. Maintaining the status quo is easy, so she'll string you along with mysterious little comments to keep you on the hook.

Is it possible that there's something in it for her financially if you remain married? I think you should consult an attorney, if you haven't already. Protect your ass(ets).

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:58 PM, Tuesday, May 30th]

One piece of advice, whichever way this turns out. You need to be driving the bus. Strong resolve and a confident yet forceful personality is what’s called for right now - supreme confidence in yourself that you’re the catch in this relationship, not the other way around. Your reactive stance will not serve you well here.

You going to the casino with her was most certainly not the correct thing to do. You’re about to go see a mediator yet you insisted on couple time. In no way do you need to try to prevent her from seeing her AP. She can do that 100 different ways without you knowing. I think this was just as much you wanting to do couple time as much as trying to prevent her from seeing AP.

This is needy, clingy behavior. You should be doing the exact the opposite- the 180. Your neediness, by the way, is actually something that most women find unattractive.

I’m try to help.

Bob,
You have abandoned the 180, and continued the pick me dance. You will continue to get what you got.

Bob, Sorry to see you here again. This is not surprising though and quite the norm on these forums. There is no embarrassment in hoping for the best outcome for your marriage or even thinking your spouse is better than what she is proving herself to be. It comes from a good place , so give yourself some grace.

I am sure you will be better equipped than before. Do what’s best for you and your daughter.

I also want to add this as someone that has been stalked, it’s very very traumatic. But it does not compare to the soul crushing, gut wrenching pain of betrayal.

I don't know if she's leading me on with this shit because she thinks it's the only way to keep me from moving faster than she thinks our daughter can handle or if she really believes there's hope.

She's cake-eating (as in having one's cake and eating it too). The ONLY way to deal with a cake-eater is to close the bakery.

Is the AP married? If so, have you informed his spouse or significant other? That's a good place to start.

She is not committed to the marriage, and she's going to string you along as long as possible.

I recommend reading "Love Must be Tough" by James Dobson. If you're not a religious person, ignore the spiritual bent, but his basic message is that you might love someone, but you don't have to submit to being treated poorly in ANY relationship.

Does her family know? That's also a good place to start. Affairs are like mushrooms--they like the dark. When you shine a light on their tawdry little secret, it becomes less romantic.

Remember, when YOU change, people around you cannot NOT change.

Cat

Bob

I’m wondering how to approach you…
I don’t think another poster hitting you over the head will necessarily do the job. Yet reading your story makes me want to grab my 2x4 and join the line…

Your title for this thread indicates surprise about how poorly this has gone – to the worst you could imagine.
I’m guessing that if we were reporting on you and your situation we would have called this thread something like "Bob’s headed exactly where we told him he would go if he didn’t follow the advice offered here on SI"

I’m also guessing we would edit your tagline: "Reconciliation: failure so far" to a more realistic "Trying to breathe in active infidelity".

Bob – I’m going to make some simple but truthful statements:

You can only get what you are offered.
Your wife isn’t offering reconciliation. Shes actively having her affair. She’s offering you to remain in infidelity. With inaction you are accepting that offer. By logical deduction – if your wife is offering infidelity and you don’t WANT that then you are also being offered divorce.
Only – don’t see it as R or D. See it as remain in infidelity or get out of infidelity. At the moment your path out of infidelity goes through divorce. MAYBE when you start on that path and get closer to that milestone of D your wife might just have a change of mind and MAYBE at that time you make a short alteration towards the same goal (out of infidelity) but through reconciliation. But… within some months you will be out of infidelity.

The only change that you can control are the ones you make.
You can’t make her stop seeing OM. You can change accepting it. You can tell her "go be with OM as much as you like, but not as my wife" and then head towards Out Of Infidelityville. That’s the decision YOU made and the one YOU control.

Nothing will happen unless you make it happen.
Your wife is fine with the status quo. Why should she change things when everything is going her way?

I want to add to my quick reply above and say that taking her out for her birthday to keep her from going with AP, you are leading from behind, trying to push a rope. Trying to corral her will never work.

I had a dog that would get out and run. I would chase that dog around until I was worn out. I would corner her and bring her home. I was so afraid of her getting lost or injured.

I asked a dog trainer one day and he said "never chase the dog!" If anything turn and run from the dog she will chase after you.

One day she got out the door and ran, I did not respond at all. I calmly walked out in the front yard not looking or speaking to her. I suddenly turned around and ran into the house, she chased after me and came in.

After that, I never responded when she ran out, she would sniff around the yard, but never ran off again. I was not afraid of losing her. I was willing for the dog to run away and not come back, I was done chasing. She was free to go. She became one of the best most loyal dogs I ever had.

I’m not comparing your situation to training a dog but it’s meant as an illustration that when I was done, I was DONE!!!! The rest was up to her.

Does her family know? That's also a good place to start. Affairs are like mushrooms--they like the dark. When you shine a light on their tawdry little secret, it becomes less romantic.

Family is not really a lever for her. Her mom's a mess, her dad is a serial cheater himself, her grandmother is almost 100 and I'm not trying to give her a bloody heart attack. If we do get divorced it will eventually come out because I'm not going to lie about why it happened.

"Bob’s headed exactly where we told him he would go if he didn’t follow the advice offered here on SI"

Yuuuuuuuuup.

I’m also guessing we would edit your tagline: "Reconciliation: failure so far" to a more realistic "Trying to breathe in active infidelity".

Changed it. You're absolutely right.

You can only get what you are offered.

I'm coming to terms with this. The meeting with the attorney-mediator is scheduled and WW and I talked to our daughter's therapist yesterday so he could prepare for when we have to tell her.

The only change that you can control are the ones you make.

I'm working on it. I'm preparing a room in our house for me to move into. Unfortunately, the bulk of the junk in there is hers and it hasn't been easy to get her to put in the time. I'm not waiting much longer before I just move it into our bedroom and let her deal with it there.

On the subject of her continuing affair, I told her this week that if she was going to keep seeing him the least she could do is be honest with me. The suspicion feels like something I'm doing to myself. At least if I know then there's no doubt that she's the one hurting me.

Nothing will happen unless you make it happen.

Except for the things that happen to me. And I feel like that's all I've had lately. I'm trying to exert control over my life in healthier ways. I don't want to let her keep hurting me so I'm doing what I can to learn how to accept the feelings without judgement and move on with my life.

I’m not comparing your situation to training a dog but it’s meant as an illustration that when I was done, I was DONE!!!! The rest was up to her.

Tanner, you're my favorite.

This is also how we get our dog back in the house. It's actually quite good advice and from what I've learned about neurology, training dogs and humans isn't actually all that different. Sure we've got that whole front part that seems to handle what we think of as consciousness but behind that is the same stuff that every other mammal has that. And behind that is stuff that every single vertebrate has.

-----

In other news, I've been learning about how although it's not in the current version of the DSM, there is a strong component of emotional disregulation in ADHD, which I have. This explains a lot for me because I've never been quick to a rage-like anger but I am quick to frustration and a quieter sort of anger that makes me more sarcastic and kind of shitty. It's also reassuring because I've been so out of control of my emotions lately. I know that's probably pretty common but it's so out of character for me that knowing my neurochemistry is even partially involved makes it somehow easier to understand and accept.

I'm working on it. I'm preparing a room in our house for me to move into. Unfortunately, the bulk of the junk in there is hers and it hasn't been easy to get her to put in the time. I'm not waiting much longer before I just move it into our bedroom and let her deal with it there.

I don't why you don't just move all of her shit out of the master bedroom and reclaim that space for yourself. If the spare room is full of her shit, let that room be her sty. Put a lock on the door to your room and start living as roommates. Showing her that you mean business is important for both of you to move forward. Taking bold action will help you feel better about the move forward to divorce, even though you don't want it, reclaiming your space and dignity for yourself. Why should you have to suffer and lose your master bedroom when she is the one who cheated. Kick her ass out of her comfy life and show her some consequences.

I don't why you don't just move all of her shit out of the master bedroom and reclaim that space for yourself.

Because I don't want to. Our bedroom is small so the room I'm moving into is what we call the "dressing room". It has our dressers and I use the closet in there and leave the two in the master bedroom to her. So basically all my stuff is already there.

She did offer to be the one that moves into the other room but I want the clean break from our bed to my bed. I'm probably going to buy her out of the house so eventually I will reclaim that space.

Because I don't want to. Our bedroom is small so the room I'm moving into is what we call the "dressing room". It has our dressers and I use the closet in there and leave the two in the master bedroom to her. So basically all my stuff is already there.

She did offer to be the one that moves into the other room but I want the clean break from our bed to my bed. I'm probably going to buy her out of the house so eventually I will reclaim that space.

Fair enough. I guess you know best how much of her shit is balanced between the two rooms and if it is less work to take the stuff out of the dressing room to the master versus going the other direction, I suppose that makes good sense.

When you reclaim that space, I imagine that space will need a heck of makeover. Fresh paint, a color of your choosing, some new furniture all seem in order if you ask me. In my case, since my wife and her AP used our marital bed, that whole thing had to go.