SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Bigger,
Logged in just to tell you how much I loved that saw analogy.

The best thing I did albeit five months too late was to tell my wife's AP's wife about the affair.

The worst thing I did was jump into MC the next week. I would suggest stopping the MC, start IC, and wait several months before considering MC. The MC's goal is to keep a couple together, get the win :/ Wait until your head is clear and you feel stable. Then decide if you want to save the marriage.

If you will feel safer by her quitting her job then make the demand. If she says no, well then you know what her priorities are.

UseD2,
I see a lot of "we", "her", but not a lot of "me" in your posts.
When are you going to think and care about YOU???
Please take the advice already given here: eat, sleep, drink water.
For most people, the pain of betrayal is the most painful event of their life.
You can forgive, but you will definitely not forget.
If you rug sweep, this can come later, let's say 5 years (ask me how I know), and it will hit you HARDER than D-Day.

The best thing I did albeit five months too late was to tell my wife's AP's wife about the affair.

The worst thing I did was jump into MC the next week. I would suggest stopping the MC, start IC, and wait several months before considering MC. The MC's goal is to keep a couple together, get the win :/ Wait until your head is clear and you feel stable. Then decide if you want to save the marriage.

If you will feel safer by her quitting her job then make the demand. If she says no, well then you know what her priorities are.

The day I found out about the affair, I told my wife’s AP’s wife. If I couldn’t have peace at home, neither could he and his daughters ended up finding out too. He admitted to multiple affairs in his messages to my wife. So now his wife knows about that too.

I made the demand while we were in therapy. She's not taking it well. I don't really care as it's what I need to move forward. I feel a little bad, but she made her bed.

UseD2,
I see a lot of "we", "her", but not a lot of "me" in your posts.
When are you going to think and care about YOU???
Please take the advice already given here: eat, sleep, drink water.
For most people, the pain of betrayal is the most painful event of their life.
You can forgive, but you will definitely not forget.
If you rug sweep, this can come later, let's say 5 years (ask me how I know), and it will hit you HARDER than D-Day.

I spent the weekend camping with friends I’ve known for over 20 years, and for the first time in 2½ months, I actually felt like myself again. Came home and felt anxious again though.

UseD2

I spent the weekend camping with friends I’ve known for over 20 years, and for the first time in 2½ months, I actually felt like myself again. Came home and felt anxious again though.

They say, getting over betrayal is on average 2-5 years, with some less and some taking more.

But, for a start: Who are YOU??? What makes you, YOU?
I don't think you being hurt by your W and by betrayal is the 100% part of you.

You felt anxious because for now, home is not home, is the place you have been hurt and some part of betrayal happened.

Let's take the bed and suppose she texted from it.

you can:
-break it in the yard (with an axe or a chainsaw) and have a bon fire
-if you can stand to be close to her, you can break it in hyper-bonding
-you can sell it
-you can throw it out
-you can donate it
-you can paint it a different color, change the mattress, the bedsheets
-etc etc

Same with your house: you can make it your home or you can sell it or rent it and get another one (if you can afford it)

Piggy-backing on Bigger's post (my hat's off for saying that again and again and again for years): to get out of infidelity, you have to choose differently.

You can choose to not be hurt
You can choose to not be triggered
You can choose to look differently at life
You can choose to be different and take care first of .... YOU?

How about you try this: when you get triggered either by remembering her, her lack of empathy or a thing in the house, get a rubber band, snap your hand with it, than think about the first morning getting out of the tent, camping with the boys and how the forest smelled and how those crazy birds sung like crazy with not a worry in the world...

Let's take the bed and suppose she texted from it.

you can:
-break it in the yard (with an axe or a chainsaw) and have a bon fire
-if you can stand to be close to her, you can break it in hyper-bonding
-you can sell it
-you can throw it out
-you can donate it
-you can paint it a different color, change the mattress, the bedsheets
-etc etc

I did some of that. Part of her affair happened from her desk, in her work chair. I destroyed that chair. She got angry and said I was breaking her things. So I haven’t done anything like that since.

UseD2
So I haven’t done anything like that since.

Hmmm,
What do you want?

"I don't know" is a perfectly good answer at this point.

For now: you can only control you.

She is responsible for her changes and what she wants. And you cannot force her to do anything.

First, you need to work on you, with the emphasis on, you will do this for you, whether she is by your side or not. You can't stay in pain forever.

Second: she has to show you she wants to stay in M and the changes she plans to do for that. Not on you to give her a list. She needs to put in the work, research and find the necessary resources. The oldies here recommend she writes a list of 9-10-20 reasons why she wants to stay married.

Than, later, you can decide if it is a good enough for you, or a deal breaker. The oldies here recommend 6 months before making a D or R decision. You can also decide Tomorrow, That's it, I'm Out.

The main thing is (Thank you Bigger), get out of infidelity.

Use the pain and the anger to get yourself bigger, meaner, shredded in the gym.

UseD2,

maybe I missed it, but can you remind me:
-how old are your kids?
-how long where you two M?
-how long have you been together?

-how old are your kids?
-how long where you two M?
-how long have you been together?

8,5 and 3

We’ve been married almost 10 years and together for almost 16.

Use the pain and the anger to get yourself bigger, meaner, shredded in the gym.

I’ve been doing this. My therapist recommended something called radical acceptance so that I could accept that this happened to me.

I told her I hated that idea. radical acceptance sounds like "learn to live with it" in a Zen robe and I am not interested in spiritually hugging my pain into submission.

I am doing Radical Vengeance instead. That means I do not just accept that this happened. I turn the fallout into fuel. I channel all the anger, hurt, and betrayal into becoming stronger, sharper, and more powerful in every area. Physically. Mentally. Emotionally.

My wife said that vengeful was one of the things she didn’t like about me during Couples Therapy. So, I’m using it.

Not so sure the therapist was suggesting you be happy about what happened even if you accept it happened.

Imagine this scenario:
Imagine you think you are doing a great job at work and think your boss is calling you to his office to give you a raise. Only he fires you. He might give some reason that you aren’t too happy with. Like needing to cut costs, and you think he should fire Joe who only does half as much as you, or he says you spend too much time having coffee, but you know its less time than the less visible guys having a smoke. Or whatever. You don’t think you deserve being fired.
But...
You are fired. No matter what you think. No matter what’s fair.

This infidelity-thing is comparable. No matter how much you want to, you can’t "uncheat" your wife. Just like you need to empty your table and start looking for a new job, you need to find ways to move on from the infidelity.
That does not mean you forgive or forget or ignore or pretend it never happened. It means you find a way to live with it, and that way can depend on your path.

If you do that WITH your wife then you need to find ways to accept she did what she did, and find ways to prevent a repeat. That’s a lot of work, but lots of couples here have done it. That really gives you limited time for vengeance. Her affair does not give you a permit to remind her about it each time she suggests you cook, or she suggests liver and onions for dinner. This is not the same as not talking about it, but there is a difference in talking and discussing, and arguing and screaming.
I have used this comparison previously: For a marriage, discovering infidelity is like waking up in the ER after a heart-attack. Once out of ER you might make drastic changes to your life and lifestyle, so two years later you are in the best shape of your adult life. At that time you might slow down. Maybe have an occasional beer and hamburger, and only jog 2x a week. But you would still have changed to a healthier lifestyle than before. At that time, you might reflect on your past and think "I’m so happy I made those changes", but you would NOT be saying "Thank God I had a heart-attack". You realize you could have had your present life without having the trauma that led to it. It’s the same with the marriage if you try to reconcile. If done successfully it generally leads to a great marriage, even if you occasionally reflect on what happened.

The other option is divorce. It’s a great option, but it also sort-of removes any agency you have on her life. Spending time being vengeful towards your divorced spouse is about as useless as it comes. Divorce is great in that you only have to deal with YOUR personal recovery, and find ways to be amicable coparents. But if she continues at her job and even starts dating OM again... not your issue anymore. Spending time being vengeful and angry at your ex is time wasted where you could be fishing.

UseD2,
the opposite of love is not hate or anger. Is indifference.

The Vengeful will get you through some time,
but your kids don't want an angry messed up father.

What you want if you don't want the 2-5 or more years cycle,
instead of acceptance, you want peace:
as in "It doesn't even matter anymore".

Now back to original programming:
beside camping, what have you done with the kiddos?

P.S. your CW, is addicted to attention and praises: it started with the compliments for dropping the 100pounds from her girls circle, private and work, than at least couple men from work beside AP, than
she choose to amp up even that
by raising a wall for AP, letting him "conquer" it, and getting a high from that ("He did that for new ME"). Flirting 101.

She re-wrote you and your entire marriage in her head during their communications
and
now she did the same with most of the stuff with AP.

I think she is conveniently using a process called compartmentalization, where she puts everything in little drawers, not to be connected.

Now she switched back to "mom and wife" mode, so she sees that as non-important.

There's a bit of lack of empathy too.

I think, part of Vengeful, should be for you to see her without the "rose colored glasses" of your love and commitment.

TJ
Bigger,
you pulled two gems (at least) in this thread:
-using a table saw for a coffee cup holder
-You could be fishing
/TJ

The other option is divorce. It’s a great option, but it also sort-of removes any agency you have on her life. Spending time being vengeful towards your divorced spouse is about as useless as it comes. Divorce is great in that you only have to deal with YOUR personal recovery, and find ways to be amicable coparents. But if she continues at her job and even starts dating OM again... not your issue anymore. Spending time being vengeful and angry at your ex is time wasted where you could be fishing.

Bigger – I always appreciate your posts and insights. It’s not about being vengeful toward her or him. For me, it’s about taking all the anger, sadness, and everything else this situation has dumped on me, and using it as fuel to rebuild myself into someone stronger and better than I was before any of this happened.

UseD2,
the opposite of love is not hate or anger. Is indifference.

The Vengeful will get you through some time,
but your kids don't want an angry messed up father.

What you want if you don't want the 2-5 or more years cycle,
instead of acceptance, you want peace:
as in "It doesn't even matter anymore".

Now back to original programming: beside camping, what have you done with the kiddos?

P.S. your CW, is addicted to attention and praises: it started with the compliments for dropping the 100pounds from her girls circle, private and work, than at least couple men from work beside AP, than
she choose to amp up even that by raising a wall for AP, letting him "conquer" it, and getting a high from that ("He did that for new ME"). Flirting 101.

She re-wrote you and your entire marriage in her head during their communications
and now she did the same with most of the stuff with AP.

I think she is conveniently using a process called compartmentalization, where she puts everything in little drawers, not to be connected.

Now she switched back to "mom and wife" mode, so she sees that as non-important.

There's a bit of lack of empathy too.

I think, part of Vengeful, should be for you to see her without the "rose colored glasses" of your love and commitment.

I know, and that’s the eventual goal — actual peace, not just running on anger. I’m just not there yet, and I’m not going to pretend I am. But while I have it, I'm going to put it to some good use.

The kids and I are going to a museum tomorrow without her.

As for what you said about her, yeah — I see more of that now than I ever did before. The attention, the compartmentalizing, the rewriting — it all makes a lot of sense in hindsight. I’m not looking at her through the same lens I used to. She has finally started showing some real remorse for what happened too. We had kind of a breakthrough in therapy and I said her working there with him is a dealbreaker.

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through brother. I have found out 2 years ago that she cheated on me. When I read your story I saw a lot of parallels to mine.

She told me it was also just sexting at first but later I found out it was just the tip of the iceberg, the typical trickle truth.

And I also wasn't healing fast enough for her. At first she was very understanding, but I was constantly triggered and eventually she ended up also getting angry at me for not being able to hold it together.

The first few weeks/months, I couldn't even get out of bed in the morning, I didn't want to, I couldn't think about anything else, I was in a constant state of a thick fog in my brain. We have a daughter, and I had to function for her, but that was the only thing I was able to do, just function and pretend that everything was ok.

Please know that you are in community of great people here. I just discovered this place (I wish I had found this sooner) and just knowing that there are others out there with the same pain, helped me feel heard and seen again.

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through brother. I have found out 2 years ago that she cheated on me. When I read your story I saw a lot of parallels to mine.

She told me it was also just sexting at first but later I found out it was just the tip of the iceberg, the typical trickle truth.

And I also wasn't healing fast enough for her. At first she was very understanding, but I was constantly triggered and eventually she ended up also getting angry at me for not being able to hold it together.

The first few weeks/months, I couldn't even get out of bed in the morning, I didn't want to, I couldn't think about anything else, I was in a constant state of a thick fog in my brain. We have a daughter, and I had to function for her, but that was the only thing I was able to do, just function and pretend that everything was ok.

Please know that you are in community of great people here. I just discovered this place (I wish I had found this sooner) and just knowing that there are others out there with the same pain, helped me feel heard and seen again.

I’m really sorry you went through that. The trickle truth is brutal. It makes you question not just what happened but whether you’ve even heard the whole story yet. And yeah, I get that "not healing fast enough" piece too. It adds another layer of hurt when the person who caused the damage starts getting frustrated at the fallout.

I know the fog you describe well. Some days it feels like I’m just going through the motions, holding it together for the kids, while inside it’s chaos. Hearing your story makes me feel less alone in that.

I’m grateful for this community too. Knowing there are people who get it helps more than I expected.

Friend – there is very little unexpected in what you are dealing with.

We are nearly all guilty of minimizing our fault – no matter what. Like if you got fired it takes a strong person to admit that they were lazy, or did a bad job or made a mistake. Most might be saying something like yes – I could have worked harder but my boss didn’t assign more work to me, or yes – I made a mistake, but the instructions weren’t clear. We tend to find ways to mitigate or explain the consequences to our actions. Your wife IMHO is doing that, and in doing so trying to minimize the effects and impact of her affair.

As I have stated I’m big on having clear definitions and being clear on what we are dealing with. I’m still not clear if she admits it was physical. I see you got STD tests – has she gotten one? If so – and if this wasn’t physical – why? If she insists it wasn’t physical what was her response to you wasting money on STD tests?
That statement she signed about it being consensual then what did she sign? I can’t see a HR department require a signed document that two people established a friendship irrespective of their spouses’ stances on it. I don’t see HR wanting to get involved in two people being close – BUT NOT PHYSICAL – at work, seeing as they are not in the same hierarchy or one not superior to the other. So, what did she sign? "OM and I are friends"?
Have you seen the document she signed with HR?

I guess what I’m saying is that EVERYTHING supports this having been physical. More than emotional.
Has she acknowledged this?

I see this pattern of your wife probably having ended the affair. I believe her on that. She has realized that maybe she was on a slippery slope and that this went too far. She might hide behind something like because it was only groping and making out this wasn’t "physical", or only oral or whatever. Heck... we have had posters insist it wasn’t physical because they didn’t climax or enjoy it. Anyways – she thinks she has contained whatever took place.
She’s happy because she thinks nobody at work knows.
She’s happy because she can go to work, even if that drives you crazy.
She’s happy because she thinks that she calls the shots: You two are still married, no serious action taken.
Once again – nothing unexpected. She’s depending on that in a month or so you two will have found a way to cohabit where this affair-thingy is over.

Unlike me – you have a front row seat. There might be more pace on healing than you share. But I strongly suggest you read my post on needing a vision. Only... base those visions on truth. I still sort-of doubt you have it.

I don't have anything against revenge, as long as it's not illegal, violent, or too prolonged. I think revenge fantasies after one has been grievously injured are perfectly normal, and probably healthy. To me, it's about wanting to get your power back and regain equity in a relationship after a terrible injury. I think people in the past, who were wiser and more practical than us, tried to address these kinds of feelings. In the Bible for example, a lot of the justice system created for the Jews by the elders involved setting prices for different kinds of injuries. For example, a loss of an animal would be so much money, or this kind of action. Loss of an eye might require this payment. And so on. Other groups had similar practices too in their culture. Even death (esp accidental) might be settled by payments of some kind esp money. These were crime against individuals so the society judged they could be settled among individuals, as opposed to the larger crimes that the 10 Commandments addressed which were more communal and affected potentially the entire group - it's interesting that ADULTERY was considered a communal as well as personal crime. Because it IS that destructive. And these payments or recompenses also hopefully avoided blood feud which could destroy the larger community.

I'm saying this partly because I'm tedious, but also because I want you to understand that your feelings and desires for revenge are perfectly normal. You want justice and recompense, but we don't really have a set way of doing this anymore. You might think about what would make you feel WHOLE or MORE WHOLE in this situation. Is there anything you can ask for, get, or she can give, that might make you feel that the balance of power between you has been restored? That's a major obstacle to me in these situations - the cheater seems like they "won", they got what they wanted, often without any real consequences, and the betrayed just have to keep eating the shit sandwich. I can't tell people just to "accept this" because....resentment arising from inequity IS a real thing and it doesn't necessarily go away. I'd rather people get anger out of their system and try to get some kind of payment back. What that means in your specific situation, I don't know. But it's something you might think about - how can you re-establish a sense of power and equity in your relationship so you DON'T feel like you're eating a daily shit sandwich?

The other thing I would mention is that - I may have missed something but it sounds like your wife still has her job and her boss, and I think this has to stop if that's true. IMO, people really can't stay in the situation that caused the affair - even if they've stopped, the whole dynamics that created the affair are there and there especially for the BS. Maybe this is part of the price to be paid - you have to leave your job and not see this boss again. It's the price you have to pay. If she's not willing and the job is worth more than your relationship, for whatever reason, that's an answer.

In general, I think, I'm putting it into responses here, that people do not consider the importance of avoiding temptation in our modern world. We have to try to avoid tempting situations, and when we realize we're in one....we have to remove ourselves sometimes at some cost. But if you're an alcoholic, you probably can't keep working in the whiskey factory. There have to be real changes in life to address this sense of inequity, of remorse, and of removing future temptation, and they all come at a cost a Wayward is either willing to pay....or not. That might tell you what you need to know about the future of recon right there.

Also, just an addendum....I think perhaps the dichotomy between reconciliation and divorce also comes out of this power imbalance and the desire for becoming "whole" again. We don't seem to have many ways of negotiating or moderating this power imbalance, and I don't think we really even want to consider it as such. In recon, so often, maybe generally, it becomes the BS eating the shit sandwich (I really like that analogy) constantly while the WS is mostly just.....annoyed by the demands of the BS. Or perhaps forced into pretending remorse they don't really feel or don't know how to express - to many of them, I think it's what's done is done, jeez, what more do you want, whereas to me this is about not only restoring trust but restoring a balance of power....of not being at the mercy of another person who does whatever they want with no real consequence other than perhaps hurt feelings. This is the great thing about divorce - it gives both peace as you're not dealing with each other all the time and you can at least find peace in your separate abodes, and it also gives the BS something to actually DO - file for divorce - when there doesn't seem to be any way of achieving restoration or retribution from the Cheater. I don't know if I have an answer to this, but I think it should be addressed and considered because I think it is a major factor in how relationship futures are decided. Perhaps if we recognized this basic need for justice and tried to address it, we might give couples that want to reconcile a meaningful tool in handling anger, resentment and very natural desires for revenge, instead of trying to get people to bury this....which only comes up later anyway or people just feel chronically weak and at a disadvantage.

As I have stated I’m big on having clear definitions and being clear on what we are dealing with. I’m still not clear if she admits it was physical. I see you got STD tests – has she gotten one? If so – and if this wasn’t physical – why? If she insists it wasn’t physical what was her response to you wasting money on STD tests?

That statement she signed about it being consensual then what did she sign? I can’t see a HR department require a signed document that two people established a friendship irrespective of their spouses’ stances on it. I don’t see HR wanting to get involved in two people being close – BUT NOT PHYSICAL – at work, seeing as they are not in the same hierarchy or one not superior to the other. So, what did she sign? "OM and I are friends"?
Have you seen the document she signed with HR?

I guess what I’m saying is that EVERYTHING supports this having been physical. More than emotional.
Has she acknowledged this?

I got an STD test pretty much right after I found out about the affair, and then another a few months later. She told me it wasn’t physical, but I wasn’t going to take her word on that without proof, especially in the beginning. I didn’t tell her about the first test until a few weeks later — she was hurt that I kept it from her but said she understood. (My doctor advised the second test six weeks later.) She ended up getting tested as well.

I also read the statement she signed at work. It focused on the relationship being inappropriate and carried out in part over Slack, rather than anything physical. It even noted that no photos had been shared, which seemed to be something her boss was particularly concerned about. (Her boss wasn’t the AP.) She has admitted that a lot of the evidence could point to it being physical at some point, but there’s also plenty that shows it wasn’t. I even have messages between the two of them where they explicitly say it wasn’t — and those were messages she would have had no reason to think I’d ever see.

The other thing I would mention is that - I may have missed something but it sounds like your wife still has her job and her boss, and I think this has to stop if that's true. IMO, people really can't stay in the situation that caused the affair - even if they've stopped, the whole dynamics that created the affair are there and there especially for the BS. Maybe this is part of the price to be paid - you have to leave your job and not see this boss again. It's the price you have to pay. If she's not willing and the job is worth more than your relationship, for whatever reason, that's an answer.

I agree 100% with this. She needs to leave her job. It's been a fight and I hope she can realize that I'll likely never feel safe in our relationship again while she works with her AP. Hell, he messaged her the other day and asked if what he was wearing was appropriate for a zoom meeting. She thought it was inappropriate and told me as soon as he did, but instead of shutting it down and telling him that - she said "its fine."