SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I can buy that definition of exoneration, but I do not buy the proposition that 'we' mean 'exonerate' when 'we' mean 'forgive'. That's why I usually as 'what do you mean?' when anyone here writes 'forgive'.

Yes, the "we" here is very presumptive. It resonated with me because this DID more closely align to what I had always viewed as "forgiveness". Possibly some "confirmation bias". No doubt. Although the themes he describes under "Exonerate" made sense to me, I don’t really like the word. I might go with something like "Absolution" being more in line with how I would view this (without going down a semantics rabbit hole). The thing that jumped out to me in this section is his brief description of exoneration "essentially means the slate is wiped completely clean and the relationship is restored to its previous sense of innocence". Is that even POSSIBLE with infidelity? Or like HouseOfPlane pointed out in this thread "You are defining forgiveness in a way that is unachievable for him and sets him up for failure in trying to reach it." Originally, the "forgiveness is for me" definition seemed to be "moving the goalposts" just to make forgiveness achievable when it otherwise wouldn’t be. Now, I have shifted to feeling like "Forbearance" fits more closely to the Infidelity journey for me. The slate not being completely wiped and at least a period of "trust but verify" coming into play. And there is still a degree of interaction involved.

In the years I have been (unfortunately) a student of infidelity, this "what is forgiveness" discussion comes up every so often. It seems it can be almost as polarizing as "define infidelity". People have told me I MUST forgive. Or if I haven’t, I’m holding on to resentment. For me, those have been different things. I can release resentment without declaring "I have forgiven". Others see it differently.

My biggest takeaway from the article is ALL of these encompass "forgiveness". It is less about "right or wrong" than "how do you see it, how do I see it and how do we each apply it to our lives and our healing journey." This made me see that although I had been leaning towards "exoneration/absolution", I can appreciate the other nuances and perspectives around other types or definitions of forgiveness and how those work for others.

"Forgiveness" in the Biblical sense is simply the withholding of a punishment that is deserved.

It has nothing to do with erasing the wrongdoing or continuing a relationship. It certainly isn't saying or feeling that it was "okay" that anyone did this to you - it wasn't, and never will be. It also doesn't mean we all act like nothing ever happened.

It's just not delivering a deserved punishment.

What's the punishment for adultery? Well, again, Biblically, technically the answer is death.

So when I decided not to kill my fWW or her church friend AP (whom I had known longer than her), they were forgiven. Oh, and yes, that was a deliberate decision. Deciding to R rather than D was also an act of forgiveness.

Anything at all beyond that is something else. Rebuilding, growth, learning communication skills, coalescing trust, etc. None of it is related to forgiveness, but all of it is downstream from forgiveness - as defined above.

...

:sigh: That guy would have made a really good corpse. Ah, well. I do enjoy not being in prison.

I think that forgiveness is one of those things that 'when you know, you know'.

I haven't forgiven my wife for her betrayal, and most likely never will. I also never sought punishment or retribution from her. We are equal partners in our relationship, although that wasn't always the case in my mind following her cheating.

The best that I can relate this internal topic to is to my faith, or lack thereof. In a short story, my father was Catholic and my mother was Jewish. My father was more *practicing* than my mother, but both of them were very caring and selfless in their approach. I have an older brother and an older sister, and they were both baptized, although we never went to church as a family. I always just assumed that I was a Catholic/Christian because my societal upbringing made me think that I fit into some sort of category.

Fast forward to the courtship with my to be wife, who was raised Catholic. I'm thinking 'Hey, I'm Catholic too', although I really didn't know what that was. But before we married, I went through the whole RCIA to become a *proper* Catholic. Baptized, Confirmed, received Communion, and it would appear that I am now a *real* Catholic.....although it seemed that I really had to, for the lack of a better description, put effort into my Christian beliefs.

As time went by, and more life experiences occurred(before the infidelity), I came to the realization that I shouldn't have to fight internally for a belief. It was more natural to me NOT to believe instead of simply being a Christian. That doesn't mean that I don't try to be the best person that I can. I can respect other's beliefs if their outward behavior to the world aligns with my own. But I can't make myself believe. It doesn't feel right.

The same goes for my interpretation of forgiveness. There is *something* in me that won't let it completely go, and therefore doesn't fit my definition. When and if it does, I will know--it's not something that I can mask, nor do I want to. I have no issue *forgiving* her infidelity if my mind allows me to do so. I certainly make no efforts to NOT forgive, but that alone doesn't give me the feeling of forgiveness.

I'll know when I know.

jb3199 your background is remarkably similar to mine.

This forgiveness thing hangs over me often. My conscience tells I should know what it looks and feels like, but then I cannot escape from the shock, trauma and the general negative feelings her infidelity has left me with constantly.

The other thing that occurs to me is what is it she's "sorry" for?

Sure, it's true she's sorry for the impact on me, how it's made me feel etc, I believe that.

But sorry for actually having sex with these guys, no, she's never said that and why would she be. After all it was her free choice and was evidently enjoyable. So why would she be sorry for that?!

And that makes me think, the sorry I'm looking for isn't there.

I guess she's being honest when she doesn't say "sorry" for having sex with other people, but does say "sorry" that I'm not over it, or for what it's done to me.

If I'm right about that then I'll never get over it.

But I can only forgive her for what she's sorry for and ending the relationship so we can both move on, I ought not to feel guilty for because there's no requirement or moral, ethical, concsciensuius or religious reason for me to forgive someone for something they're not sorry for.

I go over this myself, not specifically because of infidelity, but over other issues with people. I'm not a forgiver. I'm a "oh, so that's what you're really like, now I know, and screw you" type. Not about everything or even most things - most things even if I get very angry initially, it blows over because people make mistakes and have legit accidents (cheating is not an accident, of course) but when I feel I have been personally badly treated or deceived or manipulated....THAT I don't really want to forgive. It's a warning, it's a "that's what YOU are REALLY like". When you find out it's a snake, remember it's a snake. For me, I think it's about my self respect. I had an extremely difficult childhood so the idea of having self respect and right treatment IS very important, to me, it's a survival issue. I WILL NOT put up with abuse and I'm willing to fight back, physically if I have to, to save and protect myself (and others). So....I don't know how that fits in with forgiveness, especially the Christian ideals we all grew up with and that just didn't take with me. To me, it seems like weakness and letting people get away with bad stuff. And I'm not one of those who thinks that not being forgiving hurts ME, I don't feel that way. It's about having boundaries, not putting up with mistreatment and not interacting with people that have abused me, and giving them even more chances to abuse me. Maybe you have to feel you have more at stake by NOT forgiving the offending behavior - cheating in this case - than just by moving on, which is what I would generally recommend. I don't think recon works in general, I think the basic betrayal of infidelity lives in a corner of people's hearts, probably forever. You don't forget what they are capable of once you've seen it....it's a part of their character. And most people DON'T change. They can, theoretically, but they don't. These traits are always waiting there, to me, just for the right opportunity to come out.

It's a slow poison and for me, it's better - for both parties - if one can cut it out and start fresh. End that relationship and either don't interact or as little as possible, or at least wait a period of time to try it again if there's some reason for that, and try to start fresh if you think there HAS been actual change. I tend to put the past in the past by putting the people in the past as well.

That said, there are always lines in the sand and our lines may be different. With my husband I have got past his cheating attempts which were online dating apps (he never actually met anyone and I do believe that - he just wanted to pretend to be someone else with a more fun life during a bad period of time), and a long term (decades) EA with an ex girlfriend, which has romantic overtones but I think it's just been a friendship for a long time. They are widely separated by distance and life experience and he's not an adventurous person anyway. Have I forgiven these? I don't know how to characterize it....for me, I just stop caring about some things after a while, because I always prefer what is new or what is in the future. So as long as I know it's over or not of any significance, I stop focusing on it emotionally. I can still get triggered at times, but it's less and less. It is not active forgiveness...it's more like "not caring". It did permanently change how I regard him. I don't have romantic or sexual feelings for him anymore and I don't think that will ever come back. Once that's killed I don't see how it does. But I am fond of him, I do love him as a friend, I try to help him, and we are good roommates. I think it's the best relationship I can achieve at this age and with my health condition, etc. I am sad that this marriage did not turn out as I would have wanted it to or what I think marriage should be, but I feel that way about life in general. I'm not pleased with how anything turned out and I blame the circumstances I was born into and unfortunate choices I made along the way that didn't improve things. So it's not really about forgiving but more about forgetting, and that this is just the most practical way I can live my life. Now if he suddenly decided he wanted a more romantic, traditional kind of relationship, I would have serious problems with that and I don't think I'd want to continue, but that would present real practical problems for me, especially in this economy.

I wouldn't worry about "forgiving " - I really do think it's a bunch of bullshit that's forced on us by others to make their lives and society "smoother" and easier. I'd focus more on....WHAT DO I NEED AND WANT? What do I need to be happy, successful, or even just to survive (many people DO live at this level more than we think). What is acceptable to me - there is a infidelity writer who is NEVER mentioned on this site, and I don't know why as I think she is the best, but I can see the taboo, who asks the basic question "Is this relationship acceptable to you?" and I think it's a great question because it gets down to the heart of things, your gut feelings about how you feel and what you want. If it's acceptable to you, that's your answer....if it's NOT, that's your answer too. If you're still being bothered by these things that happened so long ago maybe the answer is: This relationship, at its core, is NOT acceptable to you. For whatever reasons. Don't worry about forgiveness - worry about what you WANT AND NEED. Now if there are kids involved, responsibility to them becomes part of the equation too, but at some point it just becomes the two of us, and that's the main question to me: Is this relationship acceptable to you?

My WW asked me to forgive her.

I asked her what she meant by that.

She had no answer.

I think she just wanted to hear the words; "I forgive you."

It’s like, "I love you."

We don’t really know what someone means when they say that to us, but we like hearing it.

then I'll never get over it

One insidious thing that can be at play here…for an awful lot of years you’ve been The Guy Who Was Cheated On. It has been woven into your identity at this point. It is a clear, strong definition. We like those.

If you forgive, or move on in some way (divorce) who then will you be? You’ve been this one thing for so long, even though it is horribly painful it is ultimately hard to give it up.

Take a check and see if you can’t see any of that effect going on here.

Whenever I think about revenge I think about Germany after WWI. Germans were left humiliated. (There are a thousand reasons given for that war and none of them make any sense. European countries were lang grabbing all over the world which meant their governments were primed for war and they got it.)Humiliation is a huge force for revenge and Hitler was ready. The difference between the end of the first war and the second is the Marshall Plan. Instead of revenge the winners and the losers have worked together for the betterment of all the countries…for the most part.
Revenge has the nasty surprise of The Law Of Unintended Consequences. It often backfires. So how to maneuver the after effects of being lied to and cheated on. I think being realistic is the only way through it. Looking at the outcome you want and if it aligns with what you get is the only way to work through to the other side.
I think you have to look at how egregious their behavior was. You have to look at the losses that will happen if you do one thing or the other. If you divorce who winds up with the money who winds up with the children. Who winds up with the ability to find happiness again. You have to look at people’s personalities. You have to look at how long the relationships have lasted and the support systems. There are so many things to look at when you deal with something as debilitating as this behavior is. In my case I just let it go. I never confronted until years later and when I did, it was a simple statement and a question and then we’ve never discussed it since. I have no desire to know any of the details. I knew I needed to get out the information that I was on to it and once I did, that was the end of it for me. It is such a non issue that it does not factor in our lives at all.
If you hold grudges your chances of being happily married goes way down. If there is addiction the chances go way down. If it was a long term affair the same holds true.
In none of this do I think the word forgiveness should be used. Someone did harm to you. You don’t need to forgive them. You need to figure out how to move on without that being front and center all the time. You need to see what happens to your money if your life is taken up with lawyers. They can be very expensive…and a good one is worth their weight in gold but don’t use the courts if the outcome is even more pain. Be very, very realistic.
I lost a friend who was way too young and it gave me a different focus. This is my one life. I don’t want to spend a single minute in unhappiness. If I can move on into joy I am going to take it.

Cooley2here

I know I'll end up with no money and no material possessions, if she gets them and ultimately they en dup with the kids, then I'm fine with that. I just want rid of the daily pain and humiliation. Start afresh with nothing, on my own, no agenda, nothing, but free of the misery of the constant reminder of my inadequacy.

Please take that word out of your vocabulary. It is demeaning to you. If you have children who love you, if you have the ability to give and take from other people in a kind and caring way, then you are a good person and there’s nothing at all inadequate about you.
The problem with a bad marriage is that someone comes out on top and the person on the bottom feels so used and dismissed and destroyed and they don’t know how they got there. Stop thinking of yourself that way. Look at your wife. Look at her behavior towards you. If it has been done with contempt, then who is the bad person here, you or her?
You have children who love you. That’s a gift in itself. I don’t think you’ll be without money or the ability to earn it but you’re probably going to lose something in a divorce. I don’t even know if you want to divorce but I do think you need to separate yourself out from her emotionally because it’s not doing you any good. I’m sure, like all of us, you want Karma to whack her but if you wait on that, you’re wasting minutes and hours and days you will never get back. That’s really how I look at life. Every day is a gift and I don’t want to use it angry.